Vicky: Life is too short to be anything other than who you are. And you have to have the courage to just, I know, this sounds a bit cheesy, but to like, stand in your truth and just be like, "This is who I am"

Zoë: Welcome to We are Childfree, a podcast about childfree women and the lives we lead. I’m your host, Zoë, and each episode I’ll speak with another incredible woman about her decision not to have children, and what it’s meant for her life. My guest today is Vicky Harris, a traveller, teacher and artist who’s found another way to mother the children of the world. Vix is an amazing woman and she doesn’t even know it! In 20 years, she’s travelled to 45 countries, teaching English and soaking up inspiration for her vibrant feminist art. Along the way she’s been a role model for women born with fewer freedoms, and sponsored children through their education. One boy from her primary school in Tanzania has just graduated from university, and is going to a teacher himself! Despite all the incredible things she’s done, Vix feels “less than” as a childfree woman. In our honest and inspiring conversation, she reflects on where her choices have taken her, the privilege that made those decisions possible, and the courage it takes to stand in your truth and say “this is who I am”. So here we go! It’s my pleasure to introduce Vicky Harris.

Vicky: I couldn't pinpoint in time when I made a decision as such. And I would say that I was very typical when I was a kid - that I always just assumed that I would have them. And I knew from quite a young age that my mum had got married when she was 24. And she'd had her first child when she was 28. So I just kind of thought, Oh, you know, same thing - that'll probably happen to me. And then I kind of - a big influence in my life has been travel, as I started traveling kind of mid 20s. I became a TEFL teacher and I was living all over the world. That was the priority, I suppose. And it didn't really occur to me, the whole having kids thing didn't really factor into my plans much, I suppose. But I wasn't actively like, "Oh, I don't want children".

Zoë: Got it. Right.

Vicky: And then I remember, after teaching in Vietnam for a year. I think I was 36-37, And I did a year in Vietnam. And then at the end of that year, I decided to travel around Australia to visit some of my Australian friends for six weeks before going back to the UK.

Zoë: Okay.

Vicky: Oh, I did that. And every friend that I stayed with, apart from one, had kids. Staying in someone's house -

Zoë: Intense.

Vicky: - and I think I kind of already knew that it wasn't something that was a priority for me. But like I say, I hadn't really decided I don't want them. But after that trip, I think I realized at that point how important it was to me to have my own space, to have peace and quiet when I need it. To have that choice, I suppose. And then I started seriously thinking about, "Oh, maybe you're not going to have them". And I think that was combined with me not being in a serious relationship at that time. And I haven't really had a serious relationship for quite a few years. Again, it hasn't really been a priority. Yeah, I think, for me, it was more a kind of gradual discovery. And then when I got to my late 30s, I was much more certain about it. And now I'm 46. And so I would say the older I get, the more certain I become,

Zoë: And where did you grow up, Vicky?

Vicky: I grew up in a very small village in Staffordshire, so you know, countryside. And then when I was I went to college in Winchester. And when I was away at university, my parents moved to a town that's about 20-30 minutes away, which is where I'm now living - Ashbourne, Derbyshire. So I've always lived in very kind of rural areas. But obviously, when I was teaching abroad, I was usually in cities. But yeah, I've moved around a lot. And I think that's also why I kind of got away with, in inverted commas.

Zoë: Yeah.

Vicky: And also, why a lot of people didn't really ask me about it, because because I was always moved, you know, I do like a year contract. My first job was in South Korea, and then I went to Hong Kong, and then I went to Spain and Tanzania. I just kind of moved around. And so when you do that for a job, you do meet a lot of other women who are kind of doing the same thing - our priority is not to settle down and have kids, you know.

Zoë: So did you notice any kind of cultural differences between the countries that you were living in about how women -

Vicky: Oh definitely, yeah. I mean, I'd say most of the teaching I've done has been in Asia. So for example, that was in 2001, that I first went, and I would have been 27, or 28. And at 27, 28, that was a big deal that I wasn't married and have children.

Zoë: Oh, wow. Okay.

Vicky: And that would get commented on, you know? And there's definitely - I don't know if it's still the same way in South Korea, I'm sure things have moved on a bit - but I was there like 20 years ago, but the women very much had to find a husband. And then once they got married, it was very much expected that they would have children stay at home.

Zoë: Okay, yeah, that sounds stifling.

Vicky: Yeah, yeah. But it's quite interesting, because when you live in those places, and you get to know your students... And so for example, when I was living in Vietnam, and it was very much the case there as well. But, you know, all the students that I taught were adults, and we used to have such a good time together and really good conversations. And they would, you know, they would ask me about it and say, "Oh, why aren't you married?", but they were quite curious and not critical about it or judgmental. They just, they were kind of interested in, I suppose, to a certain extent how much freedom you know, and especially - Actually, when I was teaching in Indonesia when I was teaching in Jakarta, I had a few female students, again, adults who would say, "Oh, you know, you're so lucky that you can travel'' - it's like they knew what their path had to look like, and they were quite curious about women who didn't have to do it, you know?

Zoë: I mean, yeah, the being able to just, at the drop of a hat, move to another country if you want to - I mean, traveling is the ultimate freedom for a childfree woman. And obviously, you embrace that. And I mean, you couldn't have done that if you'd had a child.

Vicky: No, no, exactly. But again, it just happened I suppose, it was very much a kind of organic process. And then it wasn't until I got to my late 30s, that I actually kind of was like, "Oh, you know, I haven't had kids. And I don't want them". It was quite interesting, actually. Because when I was a teenager, I remember one of the scariest things to me was getting pregnant.

Zoë: Right?

Vicky: I used to have nightmares about it.

Zoë: Oh, wow. Okay.

Vicky: I still occasionally do - not so much anymore, in the last maybe five years or so. I would have nightmares where I was pregnant. And I would just be like, "Oh, my God, what am I going to do?"

Zoë: Yeah, oh, my God, I'm getting a sweat on.

Vicky: My stomach would be big, and I would just, "Oh my god, it's too late to have an abortion, like, what the hell am I gonna do?" And so when I was a teenager, I remember, I went on the pill quite early, because I had really painful periods. And so I started taking the pill when I was like, 16, or something. But that was also like this thing of like, "Oh, thank god, like, now, I can't get pregnant". And it wasn't until recently that that kind of clicked into place, and I thought, "Actually, you've never you've never had a desire to do that". But maybe I thought when I was a teenager, that that was a normal thing. Because, you know, most teenagers don't want to get pregnant.

Zoë: True, true.

Vicky: It's never lost that fear factor. It's always very much felt like if it happened, my life would be over.

Zoë: Yeah, yeah, I had a similar feeling as well. Like, I couldn't articulate what it was. But I knew that I was terrified about becoming pregnant. And when people would ask me about, "Oh,, it'd be so amazing when you and your husband have kids", or whatever. And I'd be like, "Will it? Why? Okay..." And I guess it's this weird thing about - women are meant to have this maternal instinct that way. And when you don't apparently have this maternal instinct, they think we have, it's weird. But it doesn't mean that childfree women can't love another being.

Vicky: Yeah. What's interesting about that, I remember my mum saying to me that when she she got to a certain age, I think, maybe 27-28, she was walking down the street and saw a baby in a pram, she was just like, "Oh, my god, like I have to" - you know what I mean? And I remember her telling me that and I thought, "Okay, that's interesting". And it just never happened. I never, never felt it. And it's strange, because I absolutely love babies. And when my nieces were babies, like, oh my god, I just love like cuddling babies and kissing babies and holding babies. And I think the other assumption is that if you don't want children that you hate them.

Zoë: Yes, yeah.

Vicky: I love babies, you know, and I would love - my youngest niece now is seven, and I'd love to have another baby in the family. But it's not gonna happen now. But yeah, I've never physically had that biological reaction of like, I need to get pregnant. I have no desire to be pregnant, and I have no desire to give birth.

Zoë: Yeah, yeah, it makes complete sense to me, absolute complete sense. I'm the same as you. I love the smell of a baby. I mean, they're just so cute and squidgy. But then it's amazing - being able to hand the baby back.

Vicky: And another thing for me, which again, it's only relatively recently. I've realised that I just can't deal with the chaos and the kind of noise that comes with it.

Zoë: Yeah.

Vicky: I don't think I realised for quite a long time - I always used to think that I was an extrovert because I am quite a confident person, and I like being around people and, you know, I've got a lot of friends. But it's only in the last maybe three or four years, I realised that actually I'm an introvert because I need that time on my own. Like I need to have that time to kind of recharge, and if I have any kind of repetitive noise or constant distraction, it actually really affects my mental health. And that's something that I don't think I realised about myself until relatively recently. And I was like, "Okay, so that's another reason why that just didn't appeal to you".

Zoë: Yeah. And ultimately, you need to look after yourself and ensure that you have a happy, well-adjusted, fulfilling life. And then, you know, if you knew that adding a child into that mix was going to make that impossible, how would you ever be happy?

Vicky: Exactly, exactly. I've always been a very sensitive person, like, very empathetic. So I pick up, I kind of absorb other people's energies and pick up on things that can make too much information, or too many things going on can make you feel quite anxious.

Zoë: Right.

Vicky: I think that it's, what's the word? Like a kind of a conscious decision, I suppose, to reduce that kind of noise in my life. And I mean, like, actual noise, but also kind of mental noise. So, you know, I just can't have too much going on for too long, before I start to kind of get stressed. And so I think, again, this is a relatively recent realisation, that it was just like, "Oh, okay, you actually really need to have that space and that quiet time to kind of, you know -

Zoë: - to decompress. And you are an artist as well, so I imagine that it takes a lot of your time to just focus and do all of that as well, right?

Vicky: I do find that it has to be the right conditions for me to be able to be creative. So if I'm just distracted or stressed out, it's not going to happen. Yeah, I have to be in that kind of quiet space, I have to be completely on my own. When I lived in Singapore, me and my friend Bo used to go to the beach, and she'd say, "Oh, you know, let's take our sketchbooks and we'll draw together", and we would do it. But I always felt that whatever I drew, if I was with someone else, was never as good as what I would draw if I was on my own. So it's like, I need to have that complete solitude and that peace and quiet, to be able to actually produce something that I really like.

Zoë: Right. Tell me more about your - I mean, your artwork is stunning, it's amazing. So everyone, I will share the link at the end of the podcast, so everyone can go and check Vix's work out. But. obviously. feminism is a strong theme in there.

Vicky: Yeah.

Zoë: And is that what you've always been drawn to?

Vicky: Yeah, yeah. Because my mum, she had three children and stayed at home with all of us until I think my sister was 12. And then she got a job at a building society. And I don't know what she was doing initially, but it was photocopying bits and pieces. And she worked her way up and became a trainer. And then she started doing this thing called Springboard, which is still going now, which is like women's assertiveness training. So she would go to businesses, factories, places like that, and deliver this training to women who were maybe on the factory floor or maybe weren't thinking in terms of moving their way up - I don't like the expression, the career ladder, but you know what I mean? Like, get a promotion... And this was back in the late 80s, early 90s, and she was one of the first trainers. So this was a new kind of business setup that no one had done before. And she's very, you know, she's always worked. She's always done what she's wanted to do - after that she became a life coach. So, you know, she somehow got this really fine balance between being an excellent mum, spending time with us, but also never not doing what she wanted to do. And so I've always had her as a role model in that respect. And then I think, you know, traveling around and living in different countries and seeing how women are treated in different places - and obviously, recognising the privilege that I have, having a British passport and being able to just teach English for a living and, you know, these things that a lot of women just don't even - I mean, even just getting an education... It's always been really something that I've thought about a lot, and it's just a part of who I am, I suppose

Zoë: I mean, when you initially wrote to me, you talked about how you were sponsoring one of the kids from your class in Tanzania. And you said something really beautiful about that, that you had mothered him in a way that had impacted both of your lives. Can you tell me more about that?

Vicky: So my parents met in Kenya, they got married in Nairobi, my sister was born in Nairobi. And then they moved back to the UK, and they had me - they bought a house and everything, had me - and then after a couple of years, my dad got a job in Malawi. So then they moved to Malawi, and that's where my brother was born. So I grew up, you know, our house, had lots of photos that my dad had taken on safari, and African drums and statues, and I was surrounded by all things African, basically. When I, you know, I was creative from quite a young age. And a lot of my projects that I did at school were based on African textiles, or African tribes - I was just obsessed with it. I always wanted to go back. I mean, I'm not sure how long I was in Malawi - for maybe three or four years, I wasn't there for long - but I do remember bits and pieces about it. And I always wanted to go back. And I just thought I don't want to just go back for a holiday, I want to have a chunk of time, where I can properly kind of get to know the people and just be absorbed a bit by the culture and everything. So, I did three years teaching in Hong Kong, and at the end of those three years, I thought, save some money. I've literally been talking about it for about five years - I've been saying I'm going to go back to do this. To the end of these three years in Hong Kong, I was like, "Right, this is your opportunity because you've got some money behind you. And you could go and volunteer, work, and live there and do something like that". So I did a bit of research, and I found this British organisation called Mondo Challenge, I think they're called Mondo Challenge Foundation now. So I got in touch and I said, "Look, I really want to go to Kenya, because that's where my parents met". And they got back to me and said, "We don't really need you in Kenya, but we do need you in Tanzania". And at this point, I think I had six years of experience as an English teacher. So they said we can base you in Tanzania in a primary school, teaching English, etc. So I was like, "Yeah, brilliant". So yes, I ended up living with a family in quite a large village, actually, in the north of Tanzania, not far from the border with Kenya. There's a town called Arusha, which is where a lot of tourists go to do the Serengeti and Ngorongoro Crater, and all those kinds of things. So it was a village that was about 20 minutes from Arusha called Ngaramtoni. And I struck gold, because the family that I lived with were also - I mean, it's 13 years later, and we're still madly in love with each other. And they're messaging me and phoning me and, "Oh, Vicky -" their eldest son is getting married on the 26th of December. So they're like, "Vicky, you've got to come to the wedding". And "Oh, you know, it's not the best time to be traveling again". Just the most beautiful people I could ever have met. And I had a student in my class who had the biggest smile you've ever seen, would always have his hands up, like, always wanted to answer questions - really enthusiastic, just a lovely, lovely kid. At the end of the three months that I was teaching, they had exams, and he was getting like 80, 90% in most. So I just thought, "Oh my god, if this kid is given the opportunity, he could totally go and, you know, become a doctor or whatever he wanted to do, essentially".

Zoë: Yeah,

Vicky: I went to one Tanzanian teacher and I said, "Is it possible to meet his family? Or, you know, what's the situation" kind of thing? So I went to meet his father, who's just the loveliest man ever. He's a farmer. He was taking care of seven kids.

Zoë: Wow.

Vicky: I don't know what happened with the mum, but the mum wasn't around. I don't know whether she died or - I'm not sure. But yeah, so Ndobiri was, I think, the fourth or fifth of the seven children. And the Tanzanian teacher explains to his father that I would like to support him in his studies. So you know, buy his books for him, buy his school uniform, that kind of thing. And I think at that point, he still had another year or so at primary school.So it just started with me basically sending 10 pounds a month. And that covered books and whatever he needed. And then it kind of turned into, I was telling friends about it and family members, and they were like, "Oh, you know, we'd love to get involved too". And so I was just really lucky because the father of the family that I was living with, Mr. David, was a real kind of pillar of the community. Everyone knew him. He knew everybody. And he was really proactive. He loved kind of getting involved in projects and supporting his community. And he was who was like, checking up on the kids. And so we ended up altogether, I think we ended up sponsoring about 10 kids -

Zoë: Wow

Vicky: - basically, putting them through school and getting their books and their uniform and everything. And all those children, as far as I know, have graduated secondary school.

Zoë: Oh, it's amazing.

Vicky: Ndobiri went on - not only did he do secondary school, he then went on to university in Dar es Salaam. And he is now in his final year, and he is going to be a teacher.

Zoë: Wow, amazing.

Vicky: When he told me that, I was just like, "Oh my god, 13 years ago, I was your teacher. And now you are a teacher". And I'm not saying - don't get me wrong, like that is not all down to me. But he's got a very supportive family, Mr. David has just done so much to encourage him. And he is just, you know, I could just tell when I met him that he just wanted to learn, just wanted to study. And his English is brilliant. So we, you know, have WhatsApp messages all the time and chat to each other. And I'm trying to learn Swahili at the moment. So he helps me with that.

Zoë: Wow. Oh, wow.

Vicky: Yeah, he's, I think he's like, 23, 24.

Zoë: That's amazing. I mean, that's the thing. It's like, childfree women are often painted as not being useful in this society, because we don't want to have children, or we can't have them. You know, we're not going to give anything back to society. And I view it in such the opposite way. Because when I'm talking to childfree women that are telling me about the impact that they have, not only on human life - which, that is you, Vicky, you are having such a positive impact on so many different people's lives, you know - but take into consideration the environment and all those extra factors. I see childbearing women as having this amazing positive impact on the world, that's what we need to actually be talking about. Not that we are, you know, somehow -

Vicky: - lacking.

Zoë: Yeah, yeah. Which is, it's so, so ridiculous in my eyes.

Vicky: I thought it's interesting to say that, because it just occurred to me actually, that maybe one of the reasons that I kind of minimise the whole teaching, and this is a generalisation, but that women are kind of taught to minimise, right? And just "Yeah, oh, no, no, no, it's nothing. Oh, no". I think I kind of fell into that trap. And so I didn't really look at what it was that I was doing and how I am helping people. Because I didn't go down the traditional route of getting married and having kids. And it's almost like that is celebrated more, and that is more of an achievement, more than anything else. So I think in my own head, I minimised what I was doing, and didn't see it as that important because I hadn't gone down that traditional route.

Zoë: I mean, that makes complete sense. I mean, I catch myself doing it in my own life and work where I'm like, talking down about myself. And I'm like, "Well, hang on, why am I doing this?" Because, you know, we need to empower women to feel like they are having a positive impact on this world. And it doesn't need to include children.

Vicky: It doesn't, no. And I think we're at a really exciting time as well, in that respect, because I do think that things are starting to change. There's definitely a bit more understanding in terms of what women are capable of. Which, you know, doesn't have anything to do with having babies. Like, it's more opportunities now, for women who've chosen not to do that. And I think women who don't have children definitely feel more empowered and like they have more options. And, you know, it's no longer that thing of like, "Oh, like, let's feel sorry" - I mean, obviously, there are women who can't have children. That's a completely different thing, I think.

Zoë: Yeah.

Vicky: If you have decided that that is not for you, then there are so many more - I mean, even just this podcast and your website and everything. It's like, would that have existed 10 years ago? I don't know.

Zoë: Yeah, I don't think so. I think -

Vicky: - you know and to see doing and to hear, just to hear like, you know, one of my favourite people is Elizabeth Gilbert, the writer. And whenever I listen to her on podcasts, when she talks about this, I just think, "Oh my god, there are so many great women out there now who have chosen not to have children and who were very vocal about it". And so we have these role models now, which maybe we wouldn't have had 10, 20 years ago.

Zoë: Yeah, and I mean, you told me earlier that you have a group of friends, and most of them don't have children as well, right?

Vicky: Uh, yeah, my four or five closest friends, don't have kids. And I think that's part of the reason why we're so close. I mean, it's interesting, because my friend Lisa, who's one of my best mates, who I've known for, like, I've known her since I was seven or so - so let's say for the sake of argument, like 30, 40 years. She ended up not having children. So it's not like, I met them recently, and was like, "Oh, you don't have kids either? Great". To me, it's the friendships that I've had for decades. And we just went in the same direction. Yeah, we just, you know, for different reasons. In some cases, we were just like, "Yeah, it's not for us". And I've just, I feel so lucky in that respect. Because I have such interesting conversations with those women, partly sometimes about this, about not wanting kids and about feeling marginalised. Sometimes, you know, those friendships are so important to me, because the depth of those friendships is, it's incredible. I can show up 100% with those women and be completely me and not feel like I have to kind of agree with something I don't want to do, or talk about something I want to talk about. And I don't want to sound negative about my friends who do have kids. But I do feel like there are certain things that you stop talking about after people have children, because it's almost like the conversation returns to a kind of surface level. And this is a generalisation, I'm not saying it happens for everyone. But I do feel like there's this assumption that you're going to be interested in their children. Yeah. You know, and it might sound harsh, but I'm not.

Zoë: No it doesn't sound harsh to me.

Vicky: I don't mean it in a harsh way. But I just want to be honest about this. I'm not interested in talking about other people's kids.

Zoë: No, I mean, why would that assumption be that you would be interested in talking about someone else's kids? We don't assume that they are interested in talking about, I don't know, my random stamp collection or whatever it is.

Vicky: That's the thing though, isn't it? There is an assumption - there is. And that will be that you will want to talk about them, that you will want to spend time with them.

Zoë: Yeah.

Vicky: And I think that is one of the trickiest things to deal with, when close friends have children. Because I don't change, right? I don't change, I'm still interested in the things I'm interested in. And I still love having really in-depth, interesting conversations. But if you then can't do that anymore, and if you have to be talking about what school you're trying to get them into, or, you know, whatever it is - if you do have this, I have a feeling of guilt of just not wanting to talk about that. It's like, I can't feign interest in something that I'm just not interested in. So then, you know, the friendship shifts somewhat, and you kind of lose that depth of conversation. And that's the thing that I struggle with, because of the way I am, and because of how I think and everything, it's like, I need those deep conversations. And you can't have those if you're constantly distracted. Or if you're thinking about other things, and you don't you don't have the time for either, like once you've had once you have kids - much less time for those kinds of things. You know, just to talk. I've got a friend, my friend Jen - shout out to Jen who lives in Singapore - we talk on the phone for like five hours at the time.

Zoë: Oh, wow.

Vicky: I mean, we just have to block off a whole afternoon. And then we're like, "Oh, look, we've just done five hours". And then we're like, "Oh, actually, I need to go to the toilet or actually I need to eat". You know, to me, that's the thing - every friendship should be like that. But to me, that's the sustenance for me. Like, I love that stuff. And if I can't do that with you, I do feel like the friendship starts to slip.

Zoë: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, doesn't it? And that's the thing, I hope with this podcast with the community that we're building - I don't want any woman to feel like they're alone because they don't have friends who made the same - because that's a reality We know that, if you do have friends and they have kids, it's going to change - the relationship will change and I'm kind of... Yeah, I've got three friends who've had kids this year, and now they're slowly starting to overtake my childfree friends. So now, I have to accept that maybe people who I know are going to change. So can I build the community around me of childfree women that, maybe they don't even have to live in my city, but just knowing that other childfree women are out there and living their lives, like it's the best feeling, you know? I mean, what would you say - you know, there are lots of childfree women who can't be so open about this decision, or maybe they do feel alone as well. So what would you tell them? What one thing would you tell them?

Vicky: This is more of a general point, which again, is something that I have come to relatively recently, right? It's that thing, you know - life is too short to be anything other than who you are. And you have to have the courage to just, I know, this sounds a bit cheesy, but to like, stand in your truth and just be like, "This is who I am". It's so important to get to that point in your life where you're just like, "Look, this is who I am. And if you don't like it, tough shit". Sometimes that does mean that friendships drop off, and sometimes that does mean that someone who you thought you were really close to actually isn't the person you thought they were. But I think it is much, much better to be surrounded by two or three people who totally get you and accept you for who you are, than, you know, hundreds of people who don't get you or are expecting you to be something other than who you are. And I think it's that thing of getting to know yourself so well, that you will make decisions for yourself regardless of what anyone else's opinion is on that. And I think that the lovely thing about getting older, is that it becomes easier to do it just for some reason. Especially for women, once you get into your 40s, it becomes very much "You know what, I'm just gonna start doing the stuff I need to do for myself and everyone else can slot into that - and if they don't want to then they don't have to".

Zoë: I think that that's a wonderful message, Vicky. I mean, yeah, you have to embrace the life that you want to live and, you know, we only get one chance so we have to live it. Thank you so, so much Vicky for sharing your amazing life and experiences. I mean, you've traveled so many - I think I read that you travel to, how many countries? 20, 30 countries?

Vicky: 45 altogether.

Zoë: 45 in 20 years! I mean, you have done some incredible things with your life. And, you know, I'm so, so impressed and amazed at what you've been able to accomplish and the impact that you do have on people's lives through your teaching. So please never ever doubt the impact that you do have.

Vicky: Thank you.

Zoë: We are Childfree is hosted by me, Zoë Noble, and produced by James Glazebrook. If you liked this episode, please leave a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts, as this really helps other people find us. Head to wearechildfree.com to read more stories from incredible childfree women, and find out how to share your story with me. Speak soon lovelies.